Gang bonuses and logis immediately spring to mind.

Gankers just want their risk free money. Just be less efficient/use more freighters until they get bored.

See "Waste your time or be killed. Either way gankers ruin your day."


I run 3 freighters in High Sec and a Jump Freighter when I need it. I have never been ganked. It doesn't mean making 3 trips instead of 1 isn't really freaking annoying.

And remember,
Because the hulk wasn't intedned to be a guaranteed profit to gank, no ship in high sec is supposed to be profitable to ever gank.

If I run a company and I know that every single time I turn on a machine it will cost me $300 an hour to run it and I also know I need to run it for 5 hours a day to create a product then I know the cost will be 300*5 per day. It is not a "risk" that I will be charged $1,500 a day. It is an operating cost of running my business.

If I know it takes 10 Tornadoes of a specific fit to kill a max skill freighter and I know that each Tornado costs me 75 mil to buy and fit. I know that a max skill freighter will cost me 75*10 million. With the cargo scanners it is extremely simple to approximate the amount of cargo and the value in a freighter. From there it is a simple bit of math to figure out the probable profit. The only risk is the loot fairy being evil. It puts the risk of gankinig on the same plane as PvEing for rare drops.


The numbers in the second paragraph are probably woefully wrong but my point stands.


Operating costs only become risks in an extremely unstable market. Even then risks in ganking are extremely easy to mitigate and most of them are occurring before the freighter even knows they are being targeted.

Ganking is relatively risk free. I never said "too" risk free. I don't mind ganking. I just think it is really dumb for people to claim it is a risky occupation. Admit y'all, you're just playing around shooting fish in a barrel.

I admitted as much. I still think ganking is pretty risk free in the end.


All I am asking is that gankers admit they are scrapping the bottom of the barrel by claiming their play style is risky.

And how much does it cost a ganker to turn a freighter into space dust?

Ah, I think I see the problem...

Risk may be Cost * probability. I do not know.

Over 130k EHP.

They do not require an insignificant investment to take down. Nor does the cost of a ship matter. Nothing is ballanced around "how much does it cost" to blow up another ship.


It was only a problem with the hulk becuse the hulk GUARANTEED a profit. It had nothing to do with any ship being profitable, it sure didn't have anything to do with a freighter loaded with billions of ISK in goods.

There is no profit unless the drop works out. That is working as intended, as is being able to blow up a freighter.

In business (which Eve is not) Risk may be Cost * probability. I do not know.


Nice try on that. Selectively editing a post to try to prove a point does little more than prove that you do not have a strong basis for your argument and makes you look foolish. If you want to continue to try to disprove my point or change my opinion fine. However, don't make yourself look like an idiot in the process. It brings nothing to the debate of value.

Then give freighters slot options like any normal ship so that they can be, if the captain so chooses.

Eve is a game. There are instances where business logic can be applied because of the nature of the free form player driven economy. We aren't debating on the practical applications of business theory to logistics. We're talking about whether ganking is or isn't a relatively risk free activity. I've already admitted that there are ways to mitigate the probability of getting ganked as a freighter pilot. I already apply these to the best of my ability. I'm not saying ganking is bad. I am just saying it is no more risky than other random drop activities. If I were in null sec farming officer spawns with a strong intel network behind me my risk would be about the same. I can find out the best method for finding these officers, I can find out the probability of it dropping, I can do some math, and I can predict the outcome. Just like ganking. Could I be wrong and have wasted time? Sure, that is a very smalle "risk" though. If I am in a pimped ratting ship my ISK investment is about the same though. With a good intel network I have mitigated getting caught to near 0. The only thing ganking has that is a lot more difficult to mitigate is its operating cost. Which I do not define as risk. Even if I did define it so I would argue that is balanced out by the time investment of getting a particular spawn and drop in ratting. To me they are roughly equal in risk.

Hauling should have never been made as safe and boring as it is by adding Warp to 0.

End result, you've got complacent people losing 8 Billion in Cargo.

Karma.

Well the goons are still ganking freighters http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17862115

He only wanted to build a nomad so hes gutted now

I've been playing for about 2 months, and thanks to reading the forums and *repeated* posts by the following:

baltec1
Natsett Amuinn
Tippia

Plus a lot of others, even nooby me knows to fly with WAY under 1 bil.. I've flown right past them 1 or 2 times, carrying 5-20 mil of hard earned loot, crapping my pants and GǪ. wait for it GǪ. no problemsGǪ.

What is so hard to figure out? Right now, these are the 'rules' of the sandbox. Figure out how to change it in-game or don't complain.

Nooby-1, out.

GǪto be fair, flying past me is thoroughly risk-free, since I don't gank. I just impart the sensible approach I've picked up, which strangely enough puts me on the same side of the argument as those who do blow people up.

If a player wants to add risk to a gankers life then double wrap everything. Send three frieghters for every cargo load. Two of the frieghters will have zero value double wraped contracts. Only one of the three will have a cargo with value.

Then does that one frieghters cargo value = its cost to gank it, or equal the cost to gank all three frieghters? Risk = chance of the unknown.

I removed some off topic discussion of the dictionary definition of terms that had ventured into trolling territory. If you want to discuss the meaning of words, EVE General is not the place to do it.

Making money every gank, sounds like we can ditch the technical definition of risk and just use the commonsense definition for profit. Gain - cost. Short and sweet.

That works as well, but the assumption is as of right now that any double wraped cargo is worth ganking because it is double wraped.

So until a few ganks happen on double wraped frieghters with zero value there will imply no risk to the double wraped cargo gank.

The known value of the cargo if below ganking value is still not adding risk, as it just defines the value as not being worth the cost of the gank. No risk in this case. It simply is not worth the effort.

So why do I say it like this?

Assume you want to ship 66 billion. And it fits in one frieghter. You can send 66 frieghters of 1 billion each and be safe.
Or you can send 3 frieghters one has 66 billion the other two zero all double wraped. So the values are unknown.
If a zero value frieghter gets ganked it has to get posted to a kill board to become known that this is occuring.
That is how risk gets known and becomes calculated. By the kill boards.

I'm not assuming anything, I'm quoting the opinion of an expert ;)

Those are indeed possibilities, though. If you read the full article, he mentions all those.

I'm not making "those assumptions", I'm quoting an expert on ganking. I attributed the quote and everything. Sorry to disappoint.

Well, I went by the literal meaning of the quote, which is probably not quite actual, but probably very close. Like I said, the full article mentions all those things you mention, and says that they just flat out haven't worked to save the freighter, in practice. Risk probability nonzero, risk value zero, in the formula we know and love.

I agree with most of that. However the ganks tend to be only strong enough to kill one frieghter at a time. So three at once is a viable tactic. Very unlikely that a ganker fleet will have enough ships on hand to kill all three at the same time. Unless in Jita space.

And if they kill the wrong one and its value is zero and it gets posted to a kill board well you know where that is going.

Like I said this is risk based for both parties. If you do not want any risk it can be avoided by breaking the cargo down into smaller chunks. However then do not double wrap it as you will lose some of it if it is double wraped. The assumption being double wraped is worth ganking always until proven wrong by kill mail.

Well, I went by the literal meaning of the quote, which is probably not quite actual, but probably very close. Like I said, the full article mentions all those things you mention, and says that they just flat out haven't worked to save the freighter, in practice. Risk probability nonzero, risk value zero, in the formula we know and love.

;) and yet doesn't how they operate have everything to do with the game and risk? and miniluv is self-sufficient, or so they claim, so that's another piece of information. There are a ton of real conclusions to be drawn from this article, but it requires reading between the lines.

1.) The ignorant. These people don't check evekill. They don't understand how courier contracts work. They don't know the best way to ship things.

2.) The lazy/dumb. These people just don't give a ****, or are too impatient to do things the correct way. They autopilot. They just dump everything in their freighter. With FW cashouts, these guys are looking to beat the rush to dump things on the market.

So be risky put all 66 billion in one contract on the frieghter. And that is all that is on the frieghter. 50% chance it drops or nothing drops.

Now for the guy that claims he will only attack a frieghter when he can profit. Will he take a 50% chance to come away with nothing at all and ruin his streak or is the 66 billion in that one contract enough for him to take the chance and gank it.
Then if nothing droped would he admit it, that he lost isk on that gank? We already know for a fact that if the 66 billion does drop it will make the kill mail list.

You know, I do wonder why people are making such a simple thing so very complicated.

Fools stuff too much into their holds and we take it off them. Thats about as complicated as this needs to get.

No, although they are paraphrases not direct quotes.

Here, though. let's move beyond boring claims and into real testing and actions.

You pay me 50 billion ISK. I will then "abandon the risk model" personally, in EVE online. I will proceed to act in the game without calculation of risk for 3 weeks, thereby proving that it is possible to do so. If I fail, and accidentally calculate the risk formula, I will return the 50 billion ISK. Seems like a win-win for you, you'll get proof that it's impossible to abandon the risk model, and you'll get 50 billion ISK at the end.

The quote which the entire sentence you took this small snippet from was paraphrasing was : ""It's like a scratch-off lottery ticket. You know what you could win, you just don't know what you will win. Our guys do this because they make money every gank and they get free ships to gank with. They don't have to rat, mission, or otherwise carebear for income."

So, they're provided, now I expect 50B in my wallet from you to start the test.

And you were already answered :)

The other day I gankined an iteron. Everything dropped aside from one thing. So I ended up with an entire fitting for a hulk but no hulk

I made a mil

Again, people demand a nerf to something when there is already very simple answers to their problem.